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  #21  
Old February 11th, 2015, 12:53 AM
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Default Update, running Sap

Here is an update on how the RO is working now that I have ran sap thru it.

1st thing, Need a better feed pump. Running water thru it is one thing but sap at 35 degrees, the pump is just keeping up. I was having it shut down on me for under-pressure.

Ok here is what I did today. I collected 125 gals of 1.5% sap. I ran it thru the RO recirculating it back into the raw sap tank. Since the feed pump was not up to the task I had to keep the concentration level down so that is why I was recirculating back to the sap tank.
I did this until sap going into the tank was about 3% and then diverted it to the concentrate tank. I ended up with 3.5% sap. It looks like about 40 gals now.
So I went from about 5 hrs or boiling to about 2 hrs with only about 40 min of RO time.

I think that helps out a lot.

I think once I find a new feed pump I will be able to crank up the concentration level and get closer to 3% on 1st pass, but I am actually really happy with how it ran recirculating back into the sap tank.
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  #22  
Old February 11th, 2015, 09:27 AM
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I assume you looked at any possibility of restriction to your pumps such as clogged Pre-filter or fitting restrictions that could possibly starve the pump of sap and not give it the potential to build up to max psi? I see in previous post that you have 2 posts/vessels and at first I though you may have had too much "open" flow for the pump? But I assume you did your home work and got the right size pump for 2 posts. Too much open flow can happen even on a big RO say if you had a 5hp hi psi pump and tryed to hook up 4 posts you would not build enough psi and machine would trip on Low psi.

As you have said you closed down the concentrate which when opened too much may put out too much flow to shut down on what ever low psi you have the switch set at? As you did close down on the concentrate it allowed psi to build and you was able to stay running.

I'd assume mist would want to cut sap in 1/2 on a min first pass and maybe go for 60% reduction to maintain a decent removal rate and then on 2nd pass reduce a fair amount again.

I believe you just have too much free flow for the pump at the level you are trying to run at/pince the concentrate down some.
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Old February 11th, 2015, 05:58 PM
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Im with Kevin... increase your concentrate pressure. This will reduce the flow through the membrane .
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Old February 11th, 2015, 07:00 PM
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Increasing the pressure causes to shut down more often due to low pressure.

Without the high pressure pump running the feed pump can run it at about 45 psi and it has sap flowing out of both permeate and concentrate, just very low flow.
Once I kick on the high pressure pump the feed pressure drops down to about 25 psi. This is with the concentration flow at 5 gpm and the permeate at about 1 gpm. Once I start turning up the pressure The feed pressure continues to drop with very little increase in pressure.
I can right now run it at about 190 psi and keep it running. The flow rates are about 4 gpm concentrate and 2 gpm permeate. This is why I am recirculating the sap back into the raw sap tank.

My high pressure pump is a procon series 5 SS vane pump.

I am still leaning toward the feed pump is not capable to feed at a high enough gpm t keep a supply of sap. I have the low pressure switch between the filter housing and the high pressure pump so my thinking is since the feed pump is supply enough sap the high pressure pump is sucking sap enough that the pressure drops and shuts down.

I will try a new filter for the next batch to just rule that out but I am still thinking an upgraded feed pump is needed. I knew when I bought this feed pump that it could be the weak link in the RO. So if it needs replaced it would not be a real surprise.
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Old February 11th, 2015, 08:29 PM
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Boy oh boy where do I start? Increasing Psi on the membrane if capable should not shut down unless that pump can put out 400# Psi which I think is probably what the Membrane Manufacture Max Limit? 8" is 500# Psi without "Damage". Look at your Hi Psi Switch and set that at close to the membranes upper limit..

Set the flow rate of concentrate leaving the vessel at no more then 1/2 of what the permeate flow rate is. Looks like you have 6 GPM total flow so I would set the concentrate level at say 2 1/2 and the permeate which is open flowing with no valve to control it would flow about 3 1/2? When you slow down the flow rate of concentrate leaving the vessel does your permeate flow go up? THIS SHOULD GO UP without touching any of the other pumps/ Feed Pump OR Hi Psi Pump.

RECIRCULATING ?? not sure what your referring to there but CTFCV down so that no more then 2-2.5GPM are leaving the vessel to what ever tank you have it going to.

Feed Pump is possible issue but again Close down on the concentrate valve so that the flow is no more then 2.5 MAX going through the gauge. Machine will just not build Psi if you have too high of a "Free Flow" rate going through the membrane.

Weak Link is osmontic PSI so tighten down on the amount of concentrate leaving the vessel and I believe 100% you will be ok as you are overflowing the feed pumps capacity??. I still question why if the membrane vessel build PSI then it shuts down= Psi switch setting too low. Still I don't know what the psi rating is on membrane or the end caps on the vessel? when will they blow??

Try the concentrate flow valve first and then report back. Point Blank your too much free flowing with the concentrate flow rate so HIGH and maybe running out of pump capacity on the front end due to this free flowing.
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Old February 11th, 2015, 09:40 PM
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Kevin, I wish there was a way for you to see it run.

I know sap runs differently thru an RO than sap and also temp plays a factor in how the RO performs.

I will play with adjustments tomorrow when I get my next load of sap, just not sure how much I will have to run thru it.

As for the recirculation statement that I made, what I was doing was instead of running the concentrated sap out of the RO into my concentrate tank I diverted it back into my raw sap tank using my valve panel. I kept looping the sap like this till I got the sugar% that I was happy with then I diverted the concentrated sap to my concentrate tank ready to be boiled. I only did this because it would not stay running if I cranked up the concentration level.

Maybe I'll try and take a video of it running to post, if I can.

I knew that once I got sap I would have a lot to learn on running the RO.
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Old February 12th, 2015, 03:02 AM
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I still think you may have a problem with the setting of your high psi shutting down the RO?. I now see your recirculation method.

It's just that you need to close down on your concentrate valve and have less sap leave the membrane vessel and that will raise the psi up a bit and significantly increase the permeate flow. Just that you need the psi differencial across the membrane to make the RO machine do what it should and that is remove more permeate then concentrate.
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Last edited by Kevin Sargent; February 12th, 2015 at 03:16 AM.
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Old February 12th, 2015, 07:43 AM
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dennis just post a link to your RO thread here, and then maybe Kevin or some of the others will catch something that could be an issue, or post pics of the current setup
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Old February 12th, 2015, 07:50 AM
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Could it be a bad sensor? Is the sap tank higher than the feed pump? Sensor in a bad spot so cavitation is causing it shut down.
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Old February 12th, 2015, 04:20 PM
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One other thought is that the pump maybe over gunned for the 2 membranes in vessels and produce higher psi then what you have for a high psi shut off relay set at? if the pump can outflow what the membranes can do for flow rates then you need a bypass/relief valve in the hi psi line to the membranes vessel's? which I assume you have as the flow rate off the pump would be maxed all the time and you would have not much control over psi on membrane . Only control you might have in that situation is open up the concentrate flow so it does not build up psi on the membrane and thus create "Open Flow" which creates no backpressure and very low concentrate levels. (like what you are seeing).

I will try and read back through your build thread you have going on and see if I see something you may have missed upon?

Wish I was there as it might take me a min or two but I would know where the problem is right off the bat.
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