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Old November 21st, 2013, 04:47 PM
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Default Beginning of season rinse and Deionised Water

OK RO guru's and techie's, here's the question of the day.
I have read and also been told that it is not a good idea to rinse a RO with well water. So, what do you use for start up to do your first wash and rinse prior to maple season? Would the system in the link below filter well water enough to be safe for rinsing the membranes before you have any permeate?

US Water DI-220-EC With Dual 2.5" x 20" DI Filters 1 GPM

Larger producer have told me they rinse at the beginning of the year with their first sap. For me that would eliminate a good chunck of my final product.

Any words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Jim
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Last edited by Father & Son; November 21st, 2013 at 05:00 PM.
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Old November 21st, 2013, 05:27 PM
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A fellow producer use softened water from his milk house water system. I used soft water from a friends system that we ran until the levels changed and then let it regenerate. My CDL says DO NOT USE WELL WATER TO MAKE PERMEATE! so I didn't. Now I see that if the water is filtered and dechlorinated it is fine with SOME manufactures. I didn't have a problem with my membrane so I'm fine with my way.
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Old November 21st, 2013, 05:29 PM
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OH by the way Im neither a Guru or a techie just a bumbling idiot when it comes to my RO
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Old November 21st, 2013, 07:24 PM
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Default This is what i do

I go to a creek just over the border in vt . I know that the origin of this creek is as pure as you can get and i use this water, haul it back in the beginning of the season . So far so good = works for me= My well water stinks liks eggs and something in it that turns copper black so we dont drink it and keep away from the ro even if it is softened =foamy

Last edited by foamy; November 21st, 2013 at 07:28 PM. Reason: add on
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Old November 21st, 2013, 10:52 PM
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I use water from an old spring. I would not use my well water as it is high in iron
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Old November 25th, 2013, 12:15 PM
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Not a guru either, but it seems to me that the "official" purpose of an RO is to take really nasty water and produce clear water (permeate). So, all of the RO membranes (which are mostly being used "off label" for maple) should be able to handle a little well water... they handle salt water right out of the ocean, for goodness sake...
If you could kill a membrane with unfiltered water going through it, then using these as a water filter would be somewhat difficult.
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Old November 25th, 2013, 12:34 PM
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Jim; I'm with Haynes on this one. My conversations with Lapierre say Don"t Use Well Water. We run about 15 minutes of sap through ours to start the season.Oh and by the way we run everything down the drain.

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Old November 25th, 2013, 01:28 PM
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jstamp Not all membranes are created equal. A membrane that is made for filtering maple sap is different from one that is in a water treatment plant. In the maple business we are taking liquid that has be through the ultimate filter...a tree. We then filter it in a course filter to get the sticks and bugs out then into the membrane. I believe it was stated by Dr Perkins if we were to filter the sap/syrup through a carbon filter it would be considered adulteration.

Why not filter well water Because it has larger minerals than what comes out of a tree?? Is that possible What is it that ruins most reusable filters is clogging. Well water might not stop the membrane from working BUT it might slow it down and clog it. We clean our filters with a acid wash and if it doesn't remove the well water minerals we are damaging the unit. A clogged un cleanable RO filter over time will become useless over time. So lets go with this idea May car has a fuel filter SO why not dump dirty gas into the tank???............the car should be fine it has a filter
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Old November 25th, 2013, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haynes Forest Products View Post
jstamp Not all membranes are created equal. A membrane that is made for filtering maple sap is different from one that is in a water treatment plant. In the maple business we are taking liquid that has be through the ultimate filter...a tree. We then filter it in a course filter to get the sticks and bugs out then into the membrane. I believe it was stated by Dr Perkins if we were to filter the sap/syrup through a carbon filter it would be considered adulteration.

Why not filter well water Because it has larger minerals than what comes out of a tree?? Is that possible What is it that ruins most reusable filters is clogging. Well water might not stop the membrane from working BUT it might slow it down and clog it. We clean our filters with a acid wash and if it doesn't remove the well water minerals we are damaging the unit. A clogged un cleanable RO filter over time will become useless over time. So lets go with this idea May car has a fuel filter SO why not dump dirty gas into the tank???............the car should be fine it has a filter
OK- again, preface this with my "not an expert" statement. You've all watched me learn a bit about RO's from you... but here's some of what I've learned:

As far as I can tell, there is ONE filter that was made for maple- Dow calls it the "Maple 1" or something similar- its a big 8" membrane. All of these 4" membranes are water filters that have been used (such as the ever popular xle-4040) are water membranes.

If your well water has lots of particles (undissolved) that would be an issue, because those might clog the membrane- but I would imagine there aren't many RO's that don't have pre-filter to deal with particles. If there are dissolved solids (salt, iron- hard water, sugar, etc) the membrane is specifically MADE to deal with these... it lets them wash across the membrane and out the concentrate port while it lets the water molecules through the membrane and out the permeate port.

Haynes, you say that the well water has larger molecules than the tree, but I don't think so: its been quite a long time since my organic chemistry classes, but as far as I can remember, sugar is a pretty big molecule... lots of carbon and other elements in a fairly complex arrangement. Salt, Iron, etc. in solution would be WAY smaller than this. Perhaps someone closer to these classes (or who paid more attention in HS than I did) could help us out.

For your car analogy, you make an excellent point, except that I think the analogy would actually be: if you need to get your car from one place to another, are you really damaging it by driving it? (The job of most RO filters is taking dirty water and making it clean, and the job of most cars is moving from one place to another)
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Old November 25th, 2013, 07:35 PM
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first you are both right, but both wrong in respects. iron is actually an atom and not a molecule. comparing iron to water Iron is 55.8 daltons, while water is 18.0 daltons. Iron has a calculated atomic radius of around 156 pm, while water has a radius of 110 pm. the better answer to this debate I think would be this......
A typical bacterium (E. coli) is about 1 um in the long axis. A typical molecule is about 10(-4)-10(-5) times smaller. so buy the use of distilled, or soften water you are limiting the chances of exposing your membrane to bacteria. (it will see plenty once you start running sap through it on a regular basis) by using well water or other sources you are exposing the membrane to bacteria prematurely if my understand is correct?? like stated before all membranes aren't created equal.....some do say rinse with only distilled or soften water, and others used in maple are a water membranes, but like I stated before maple, water, salt, or whatever the application the membrane was designed for I would think you would want to try to minimalize the exposure to bacteria the membrane sees. i could be way off on this, but it seems to make sense in my head. i would also like to thank Ask.com for the way beyond my intellect information i have provided.
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